Anxiety and Uncertainty with Dr. Courtney Tolinski

I sure hope you're hungry.

Hoo. I'm starving.

Wash those hands, pull up a chair, and secure that feed bag, because it's time to listen to Scott Tolinski and Wes Bos attempt to use human language to converse with and pick the brains of other developers. I thought there was gonna be food, so buckle up and grab that o handle because this was going to get wide eyed as old.

This is the Syntax supper club.

Welcome to Syntax.

On this supper club, we have a very special guest.

My lovely wife, doctor Courtney Talinski, is going to be here talking about anxiety.

We're gonna be talking a little bit about Some of the psychological and physiological symptoms of psychology, we're gonna be talking, you know, just some general questions. Some people submitted some anonymous questions via our our help form in the Syntax site. So if, you're out there and you have anxiety or maybe you don't even realize it, This episode should be very interesting to you.

Or maybe if you have anxiety about publishing your Code. Maybe you should actually use a service like century@centry.i0 to make sure that if you're launching some code, they have your back, so check it out at century.io.

Alright.

hanging out here. We just had our internal sentry all hands meeting, which is It's like a like a twice monthly meeting where we kinda somebody in the company updates what's going on, and and this was our week to Give an update on syntax and whatnot, so it's kinda cool to show everything we've been working on and about to launch. Yeah. It was really cool to

Really fill in, you know, everyone with, like, what what is the what is the association between Sentry and Syntax, really, Like, what are we doing? What are we working on? And some of the really exciting things we have coming down the pipeline. So, stuff that we'll we'll get to share with everybody listening to this podcast very soon.

But let's get into, our, topic today. Courtney,

how are you doing? Hi. I'm I'm well. Excited to be back, Talk more about psychology.

Yeah. Mhmm. If you're out there and and you are interested in these kind of mental health subjects, we have had Courtney on the show a couple times before.

So give our site a search.

We've talked about, ADHD, just all kinds of mental health questions. And and sure enough. If you're interested in more mental health, anything, let us know, and we can do a deep dive focus on that because, we have a doctor in the house. That is for sure.

Doctor Talinsky. The kids call you the the feelings doctor. Is that right? Yeah. That is right. That's how I explain it. Because when kids hear doctor, obviously, they're thinking medical doctor and shots, so we have to be really careful to let them know, no. I don't give shots.

You talk about feelings. Oh, I I didn't think about that.

Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. Probably much happier to Yeah. Sometimes. Friendly truth shots, nonpainful

truth shots. Yes.

At least you're not a dentist. Right. Yeah. I can't imagine being a dentist, though. Like, Nobody is ever stoked to go to a dentist, except for maybe Scott. We always talk about this. But I'm not no. We're I'm not stoked to go to the dentist. I no. I had a tongue piercing for

too many years, and it it destroyed my gums. So I, I have, like, exposed roots and a bunch of, like, terrible Tur like, my teeth are fine, but I got gum issues, man, from a bad bad position.

Someone else I was talking to who is just like, oh, I love going to jail. Oh my god. Me how Amazing I am. Like, oh, how amazing you are. Lay off. I feel like I always get folded at the dentist about, you know, flossing or whatever. You have Good teeth. Courtney still wears her retainer from I do. Like high school. Yes. So Oh, man. Not the same retainer, mind you, but, You got good teeth habits. Alright. Well, let's talk about, health habits here. I I guess, first and foremost, I you know, I think what we should assume Overall is that, you know, anybody listening might not have a a clue as to even, like, what, You know, clinically described anxiety is or or how it affects their life. So maybe would it would be interesting if you could give a overall like, what is Anxiety.

Yeah. So I I feel like most people have an understanding kind of what anxiety is, but, clinically, it's different Then, you know, just having general stress or worry about something. So clinical anxiety is, like, excessive worry or apprehension. So You're worrying about something pretty much every day.

You know, it it's hard for you to control it, so people will tell you to stop or you're trying to Stop yourself or distract yourself, and your brain just comes back to the worry. Right? And it ends up manifesting itself into things like Feeling restless or, like, kind of on edge, feeling really tired or, like, overly fatigued, having a hard time Concentrating on things or, like, focusing, being irritable.

Right? Like, quick to snap Or, like, short-tempered, feeling like the physical effects of stress, so, like, muscle tension. And a lot of people get it in, like, their shoulders or their neck. But just in general, you feel, like, really stiff and tight.

And then it's hard for you to sleep because you're, like, tossing and turning and thinking about whatever it is that you're stressed out about.

So that's what clinical anxiety looks like. And to be diagnosed with, like, a generalized anxiety disorder, which is what I think most People struggle with when we're talking about anxiety.

You have to have had these, like, Feelings and symptoms, right, that I just talked about for at least 6 months, so a while.

Right? And, usually, it's something that you dealt with When you were younger, you can kinda think back to different things that, like, stressed you out or having that, like, feeling of a pit in your stomach, You know, or, like, trying to avoid things or just feeling, like, excessive dread about some things. You can think about that Those moments in your childhood, but, usually, it doesn't come out full force until you're, like, a teenager or a young adult.

Yeah. And is that, like we me and Scott talked about the Sunday scaries or the, like, Yeah. Yes. That, like, The homework feeling I used to have like, we were talking about how, like, I would always just be like, I don't wanna go to school tomorrow because it's I have all this homework and all these tests coming up. And Now that I get to goof around on the computer all day and do fun stuff, I don't have that anymore. So, like, is Is that you don't. Yeah. That everybody has? Is that, like, anxiety in everybody, or is that just because you don't wanna do some things? Is is there a difference between the two things?

Yeah. That's a good question.

I I think it depends. It always comes back to, like, how much is affecting you. So I think everyone kind of dreads Monday because it is. It's that shift from, like, play to work. Right? And that's Not as fun. Even if you love your job like, I really love my job, but I get the Sunday scaries weekly. Oh, yeah? But if if it's affecting you or, like, You can't sleep or you're thinking about it all day Sunday and and you have those things that I talked about, like, it's hard for you to concentrate, you're irritable. You feel really tight and stressed inside, then that's probably more Clinical anxiety, but I I think everyone kind of struggles with change, even, like, micro changes, like, Sunday to Monday.

Yeah. And we don't need to get, like, too personal on here, but I know with your Sunday Scaries, it can make things, like, in the day to day Life like, typically, that wouldn't be as challenging like, seemingly much more challenging as you're doing them. Right? Like, it can, Like, affect the stuff that should be easy for you.

Yeah. Right. And and that's, like, the big thing with, like, the difference between general anxiety and clinical anxieties.

Clinical anxiety, like, where it could be diagnosed, is something that's affecting you in your Your day to day life. Right? So it's affecting you at work. It's affecting you socially. It's affecting you at home.

But to the point where it's causing, like, We use, like, significant impairment as our clinical language. But, like Yeah. You're noticing that it's, like, affecting you, and it's hard for you to function, throughout your day to day.

So you mentioned, like, a little bit of, like, the the physical symptoms, you know, like the shoulder tightness and stuff. Is that something that everybody experiences the same way, or are there different, physical symptoms that people might experience? And, like, what kind of, like, long term detriments, I guess, come from those physical symptoms?

Yeah. That's good question. I those are just, like, examples of symptoms.

I can't recall in the DSM, like, how many you need to have. But to be diagnosed clinically, you often need to have, like, a certain number. Like, It might be, like, 3 of the 5 that I mentioned or 3 of the 6.

But it it could be a range of symptoms for some people. It's like headaches, you know, like, increased heartbeat.

And there's a lot of different types of anxiety too that we didn't talk about. Like, Lot of people have phobias about certain things.

OCD is a type of anxiety.

Some people have panic disorder, which you could think about as, like, panic attacks that are frequently occurring.

Or for young kids, you see, like, separation anxiety where they don't wanna, like, Be apart from their parent because they're worried about, like, harm happening to them while they're away or, social anxiety, right, which a lot of us Struggle at 2. It's like a fear of, embarrassing yourself or or saying something stupid in front of other people and then, You know, feeling that shame. So, like, performance based or just being in, like, social settings. So there's lots of different ways that anxiety can, like, manifest itself both, like, Internally and then, like, in terms of its clinical presentation.

I don't know if this plays into it at all, but, like, I I often talk to people about, like, People really care what others think of them.

And I was always the in, like, in high school, I was always just the in university, just run around and, Like, I I talked to Caitlin about this. Like, I don't care what people think about me. Like, obviously, to a bit from a professional standpoint and whatnot. But, like, I I'm never when I do something, I never think, oh, what are they gonna think that I'm trying to do x, y, and z or Trying to post. And that's why my, like, Instagram is so off the handle of all this random stuff because I just post whatever whatever makes me happy. Right? And I find that a lot of people like, I wish I could post like you, but I I care too much about it. Is is that anxiety, or is that just, like, a a totally different thing? It can be.

That's probably more of, like, a people pleasing tendency, which can be, like, part of an anxiety, like, profile. Like, I'm definitely a people pleaser, and I also have anxiety, you know, but I'm a perfectionist.

And the people pleasing tends to come from, You know, I hate to say it because everything seems to come from this, but it's from your childhood. Right? And how your parents interacted with you and, like, the types of Family dynamics that you had and what happened. And, you know, I was definitely in a family of people pleasers, and we kind of, like, Did that around my sister, you know, so that's my childhood experience. And so a lot of people that have people pleasing tendencies, it it Comes from that, experience in childhood. So you probably didn't have that experience.

But, you know, but anxiety, just like anything else, it's Part genetic and part environment too. Right? So you have the genetic predisposition, but those genes are turned on based on, Like, what you, experience in your day to day. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying, like,

anxiety can be both Passed down to you from, you know, genetically, but also through, like, experiential.

Yeah. Are there other ways that people can, like, Become having anxiety disorders or, Gandy types of things, or are those, like, the 2 main ones?

I mean, those are the 2 main ones. But, like, experience, you know, can be anything, like environment. Right? So for a lot of people, they, Have some sort of, like, trauma that happens to them in life.

You know, for example, I've been in a number of car accidents where I've been rear ended. And, one time, our our baby was in the car with me, and that was a pretty significant trauma for me. And another time, you were pregnant. So In another time, like yeah. Yeah. So I've had some bad luck with that, you know, but those are, like, traumas that, you know, everyone can kind of relate to, but they're obviously more serious traumas that happen too.

So sometimes, like, a significant trauma can trigger anxiety.

You know, I've I've talked to other women who've had, like, Really, serious, like, labor and delivery experiences that have caused, anxiety for them. You know, so just like things that happen in life can lead to anxiety.

Yeah. I have a personal experience with that. If yeah. Well, if you've been listening to this podcast for a long time, you'll know that near the start of the podcast, I, like, told this wild story about going to, the it was Zite day at the time, but now Versal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I went to that conference. And after giving my talk, which went really well that night, I I had, like, a weird Thumb thing, where my thumb grew super large and turned bright red. And the next morning, I had a big red line streak going up my arm. Well, it turns out, it was, like, Lymphangitis, which is a super scary health thing that you could die in, like, 48 hours less than that, you know, from.

So I had to, like I I, like, fainted in a cab, and I had, like, this really traumatic health experience. And, like, ever since then, I could be getting, like, a cut. You know, I will think, holy cow, this cut is going to be the end of me. Like, it is Right. It has, like, completely ruined my ability to to be confident that my body will heal Anything at this point. And and so, like, that is a a like, a a very real piece of trauma that's, like, affected my life from that point forward now. Right. Exactly. Yeah. But you didn't have that trauma per se But I did before then. I did have a bit of health anxiety. You did. Yeah. Right. But it exacerbated

it. Right. So you had both the genes Yeah. That were there and then the environmental experience Double dose.

Yeah. Right. But that's what happens. Usually, you have that predisposition, and then some sort of life event happens that, like, exacerbates The symptoms or turns it on. And for a lot of people, like, the pandemic was a big one. Right? I know for me, it kinda, like, pushed me over the edge being, like, a young mom Having kids and being, like, isolated at home, you know, you can go from someone that's, like, functionally anxious, meaning, like, you can do your day to day, but, know, you have little worries and things like that to where the anxiety is really affecting you.

You know, and the pandemic was A big one for sure. Yeah. I'm sure it was for a lot of people. Yeah. So okay. So but okay. What about, like, the longer term, like, health stuff because I I I I know I mentioned that, but we oh, they asked, like, 3 questions at once.

If you're experiencing, you know, intense anxiety for upwards of many years without, like, trying to treat it. Like, what what can happen to you?

Yeah. I mean I mean, a lot of health issues. Right? Like, you're more predisposed to, like, cardiovascular issues, GI issues.

Right. We know, like, IBS. And we're learning more about the gut the gut brain access and how those 2 are, like, really connected.

And a lot of, researchers are starting to think that anxiety stems from the gut. Right? And I don't know if the jury's out in terms of that, but There is definitely a connection there.

Obviously, sleep issues. Right? If you're not getting good sleep, that has long term effects.

It can if you have anxiety, it can lead to things like substance abuse or reliance on, like, drinking alcohol or Or having more caffeine or, you know, more serious drugs and things like that, as well as, like, chronic pain or, even other things like Depression and anxiety and depression tend to go hand in hand.

So you you often see those 2, like, co occurring.

Yeah. It does feel like if you're anxious and then therefore not getting any sleep, your body's gonna start to have all kinds of issues, and then then you're not gonna sleep. Mhmm. Be anxious and then Right. It's a Oh. Cycle. It's a cycle. Yeah. Gosh. A feedback loop. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

So okay. So I guess People might be out there and they might say, oh, you know, I recognize some of these things in myself, but I don't necessarily recognize it being a problem.

Like, what would you say that it it goes from it's a thing in life that I'm dealing with to a thing in life that is A problem that I need to do something about.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's tough because I I think a lot of people do have just kind of Anxiety in their day to day, I think we all worry about stuff. Right? That's pretty normal.

But when anxiety becomes a problem, it's, like I said, when it's, like, really affecting You're functioning. Right? So if you're finding yourself, like, avoiding parties or, like, not wanting to text someone back Because you're worried about, like, how you're gonna phrase something. Right? Or that you'll say something embarrassing and, you know, therefore, you don't wanna go to a party. Right? That's That's a problem.

Same with work. If you're working and you're, like, thinking about whatever it is that's stressing you out and because of that, your productivity has gone down. Right? That's more of a functional problem.

If you're finding, like, you can't get sleep Because you're so wound up at night, and you're just tossing and turning and it's happening, you know, for weeks on end, That's a problem. Right? So it's to what degree is it affecting you in your day to day, and how much can you, like, turn it off versus, like, You know, it just comes up every once in a while. Right? Because like I said, we all have things we worry about. Right? Life is just kind of inherently stressful.

But if it's, like, affecting your ability to, like, go about your day, then that's when you might wanna seek some more support.

If I'm in going dab mode and it's midnight and I'm afraid that I didn't lock the doors, so I get out of bed to go check the doors are locked, that's fine. But then if it's midnight and I've checked the doors 5 times and it's Right. 1 in the morning, I've decided, oh, I gotta go check again, like, then that's a problem. That's a problem.

Yeah. Yes.

Okay. Cool.

Just to be clear, I have the first one, not the second one, but there are

many other anxiety things that I do do. Well, that's my dad. He has that, like, Checking. So he'll, like I know a lot of people do this. They worry about, did I shut the garage door? And they've, like, driven around the neighborhood, and they have to drive back To see, did I shut the garage door? And that's like a daily thing for him. I think one of the the first time that I knew Courtney had some kind of anxiety was When I had bought a a PlayStation

and I bought the PlayStation. It had been out for a little while. It was still kind of a hot ticket item, and I had it in the trunk of my car. My car had tinted windows. It had a a You couldn't see into the trunk. It wasn't an SUV. It had, like, one of the the top covers.

So there was zero chance that any human being would know this thing is in my trunk. And we were going to breakfast, and she was like, someone's gonna steal that PlayStation. Like, I was like, no one knows what they did, though. Like, nobody we just drove this place. Nobody has any clue of Yeah. But someone's stolen your iPad before.

Yeah. They did. For you're prone to, like, leaving stuff in your car. Break up. They did break into my car. Yeah. This is my very good balance, So Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a little too reckless.

That's, definitely not in San that was many years ago. I think it's a bit more common these days, especially you see all those videos. San Francisco, people just

smash in the window and grab and everything. Yeah. Pretty wild. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I made it Nice and easy for them. I'm sure the the I the iPad it was like the iPad Touch. It was like the new iPad Touch, and it was just, like, sitting on my center console. Oh, yeah. And it was in Ann Arbor, Michigan, so it wasn't, like, a not a not city, but it's, you know, a pretty chill city. And then, yeah, somebody got that good. And then, the Worst part about it is dealing with all the glass. Right? Okay. So if I if I can't if I can't pound, like, 8 shots or, You know, do some illicit drugs to solve my anxiety. Like, what should I be doing to solve my anxiety? What did you say? 8 shots? I Oh, like I'm not these aren't things that I'm actually doing. Yeah.

A a shots is where Scott arrives.

I've partied with him before. Yeah. Arrived. Yeah.

Yep. Okay. Yeah. So, things that you can do. Right? Obviously, therapy, that's a big one.

I love therapy.

I Think it's great, and it it's really helpful, especially for anxiety, because a lot of times, you don't know, like, what those triggers are. And we talked about, like, Childhood trauma and things like that. That's a lot to, like, unpack on your own. Right? So being able to talk to someone who's trained, and knows, like, what questions to ask and how to help you, like, Figure out what those, underlying traumas or, like, you know, kind of root cycles are for you. That's really helpful.

So if you're looking for therapy, I know there's a lot of great, like, apps and things like that where you can do therapy with text. And I I know it's been helpful for people, But I recommend psychologytoday.com.

I think they have 1 in Canada too. .Com might be the American one. Usually.ca.

Right? Is psychology dotca a thing?

Probably.

Let's see here. Psychology Psychology b a. It would be psychology Psychology

a. Psychology with a u. No. Psychology today.comforward/c

a. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's It's at least in North America. I feel like it's probably worldwide. Mhmm.

But there's there's lots of different types of treatments depending on, like, what type of anxiety you're dealing with. Right? So the general one that's recommended is, like, cognitive behavior therapy where you're looking at your thoughts, right, and how, Your what behaviors you're exhibiting and then, your feelings. Right? So thoughts, behaviors, feelings. And we talk about it as, like, a triangle that, it's cyclical. Right? And so, like, parsing that apart and figuring out how to shift any negative thoughts or unrealistic thoughts you're having into more, like, positive or realistic thoughts. Right? So that's what you would do in CBT.

For something like a trauma, like, Maybe like what Scott had or what I had with the car accidents.

I love EMDR. It's eye movement eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. I knew I would get that wrong. So that's what EMDR is. And, Processing. I knew I would get that wrong. So that's what EMDR is. And, it's really interesting. You're doing, like, a tapping motion, But you're going through the actual traumatic event, and you're doing, like, bilateral stimulation on your body.

And a therapist is walking you through the event. So you're experiencing it in your mind, and then you're, like, shifting your thought, Like, the anxious thought you had about it and your feeling to something that is more manageable. So that's a life changing therapy.

I love that one for trauma. Just to ask a question about, like, physiologically, is that, like is it essentially, like, Redoing connections in your brain, is that what it's doing, or, like, how does that how does that make changes?

Yeah. So that's That's something I specialize in, so trauma therapy is, like, definitely a specialization among psychologists. But how my therapist Blaine, it was, you know, that you're when you have a trauma, it's kind of, like, cycling in your brain, And your brain does not know where to file that event. Right? So it's kind of like this uncertain thing that's Happened to you and your brain doesn't know what to do with it, so it keeps resurfacing in your unconscious because you haven't processed it. Right? And so the EMDR helps your brain to, like, fully process the event that happened and then, like, File it away in a safe place so it's not, like, ruminating.

Does that make sense? And it makes sense for, JavaScript developers.

Here here's a good analogy. You've just written a useEffect, and there's no dependency array. That thing's just gonna be running, and there's no there's no context there. And then what you gotta do is you gotta tell it what its dependencies are, and then it knows when to run with what it's associated with. See? There you go. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So EMDR is great.

Other things, like keeping a journal.

I know a lot of us had journals when we were younger.

But journaling is great. It's a really great way to, like, think through your thoughts, what happened in the day. And now there's so many, like, really great journals. I know you just found one. What's that called? Be well?

I'll I'll I'll share it later later on. Okay. See if I have the link here. It's called

oh, I did not paste the link. I'll find it. Okay. Yeah. There's a lot of great, apps that you can use or just, like, a general paper pencil

notebook. Yep. Works too. But journaling through your thoughts. Obsidian works well for that, folks. If you have a app, and it works at Apple, Linux, Windows Obsidian is a good app for that. It does, like, the automatic daily notes and stuff. I know iOS is launching a new, journaling app as well, on the new the app that I was looking at was How We Feel Oh. Is the app. It's a really beautifully designed app too. How We Feel. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's tons of great apps for things like that. And then, you know, another thing that we've talked about before here is, mindfulness.

Right. So doing, like, meditation, even yoga, that's really helpful.

But meditation just helps you focus on the present And to not get, like, caught up in the future thinking, the, like, what ifs. Mhmm.

Because, obviously, we can't predict the future.

Right. But with anxiety, you're trying to, like, always think about, like, what could happen and then, like, plan for those various scenarios so you feel prepared.

But you never fully feel prepared because you don't know, like, what's going to happen. So it ends up being, like, this hamster wheel. So staying present is really helpful because it reminds you to, like, be grounded and to not get caught up in the future thinking.

So I love that. Headspace.com and calm.com are, you know, really great places to go for that.

And then, like, cardio exercise. Right? Aerobic exercise, getting on the Peloton or doing, like, some really hard aerobic Activity can be really helpful to, like, get that blood flow and decrease your anxiety in your body and your brain.

Would going for a walk be effective As effective, or do you need to be, like, really moving?

Yeah. I mean, I I think that aerobic exercise is probably the most helpful when you're really But, yeah, definitely going for a walk if you're having, like, mild stress or anxiety or just being out in nature can be really helpful too. But if you're having, like, significant anxiety, I think, like, a hard aerobic workout is best. There was the TikTok trend a couple, Maybe about a year ago called the stupid

mental health walk, and everyone's, like, going on my stupid mental health walk.

Good for me.

Because it's good. I know. It it is. It's so true. And we know all these things. Right? It's I'm probably not sharing anything new, but these things work.

That's the hard part because I think a lot of people want, like, a, Like a magic bullet. So we get into some of these. Like, can I just, can I just take the Ozempic, solution? Wes, are you familiar with the Ozempic thing right now? Is that The, where everyone's taken to lose weight? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And and it's it's a problem because that's not what for and it's also causing a bunch of other issues, but everybody's just looking for that. Let me let me take the pill and, let me just deal with it, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

The Ozempic's not for anxiety, though. Oh, you're you're just saying everybody wants the No. The pill

Like, the pill solution. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody wants a quick fix, and and, like, Some of this stuff, like, doing the work is hard hard work. Yeah. Fortunately.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, yeah, if you're doing the work, Like, you're doing therapy for 3, 6 months, and you're still feeling stressed out, then, you know, looking at SSRIs, Ryder medication, antianxiety medication is really effective. And other things too are, like, omega threes and magnesium have been found to be, like, helpful supplements that you could take.

But, yeah, SSRIs are really helpful. But you have to do the work first.

You can't just take the SSRI and expect that the anxiety's gone. Yeah. And and disclaimer, only, you know, talk with your doctor before taking magnesium. I know. We're we're talking to the doctor now. But, I mean, it's a mineral or whatever. But Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Don't just I just legal liability.

Okay. So I guess we have a bunch of questions here that came in from our form here. People had some questions for us and had some questions for Doctor, we can get into some of your stuff too if you had other other notes that we didn't hit court because I know you have stuff. Yeah. We had a question that came in that was, How can we recognize our triggers for anxiety, and what are healthy healthy coping mechanisms? I know we just talked about some of those, but, you know, How can we recognize these triggers?

Yeah. So I again, I think journaling or, like, noticing common themes of things that are, affecting you. Right? Whether it's, like, interactions with people or, like, certain environments.

You know, just jot them down. Right? And you'll notice patterns over time.

So that's really helpful.

Obviously, working with a therapist.

Therapists are trained to help, Unpack those triggers, right, and help you figure out what what things are,

affecting you. I definitely recommend that because Yeah. I would never have made the association between my trauma traumatic event and my health anxiety if it wasn't for you unpacking that with me. Because I would've just been like, oh, I'm just I'm just a tell anxious. I got I got health things. I'm a hypochondriac. You know? But it was you that were like, hey. You know, that traumatic health event you had might have been somewhat relevant here.

Right. Well and you also, like, had, you know, some childhood Yeah. Experiences too. Truth. Yeah. You know? So, Yeah. So that's really important to do. And then, you know, talking to people close to you and seeing what they notice. Because a lot of times, we're, like, in our heads, you know, and it's hard to, like, See what's really happening. But the people closest to you, if they're good friends and they're honest or, like, your partner or whatever, they can probably give you those triggers really quickly if you ask them. You know? So talking to people, Jotting them down and just being observant, paying attention to your body.

And that's where that mindfulness really comes into play because most of us are not connected to our bodies at all. We're just kind of, like, going about the day, right, and not paying attention to, like, how we're really feeling internally and how we're responding to things. And especially with anxiety, you're thinking more about your thoughts and you're not connecting to your feelings. Right? And that's the big thing is really thinking about How do I feel? And then backtracking to, like, well, what's making me feel this way?

I have a, a small app Recommendation, if if you're out there and you really like tracking things, there's an app that I used when my health anxiety was at its worst called Bearable, And it's spelled like a a like a teddy bear, b e a r a b l e, bearable app, and this is Android or iOS. And this app tracks Literally everything, and it can track literally everything at several different points across your entire day.

So you can check-in as many times as you want to say, alright. All of a sudden, my depression symptoms are feeling worse or my anxiety's high, But, also, you know, have I had coffee today? Have I had my medication today? Have I have I drank water today? Have I done exercise? And Or how much sleep did I get last night? And it can connect to your wearables and all that stuff. And at the end of a month or even a couple weeks, Like, identifying trends with that app, it's like what it's made for, is to look at and compare trends in that regard. So you can see, oh, shoot. I felt really bad on 5 days. And on all 5 of those days, I didn't get any sleep the night before. Oh, shoot. I guess that is what's going on. You know? Right. Right. Okay. So we have another question here. It says, do you have any advice on how to deal with uncertainty? I'm Currently experiencing a lot of life changes and uncertainty around what the future will hold, therefore, causing a lot of anxiety.

Yeah.

Uncertainty's tough. Right? That's kinda one of the core cruxes of anxiety is not being able to deal with The unexpected. Right? Even though we know that you can't control anything in life other than yourself, it's really hard when you have anxiety because that's all you're Usually, trying to do is, control control the situation in your environment.

So I I think one of the biggest things is To just, like, acknowledge how you're feeling.

Right? To to really, like, sit down and feel your thoughts. And most of us don't wanna do that. Right. It's not fun. It's uncomfortable. We don't we'd rather just, like, push them aside and not deal with it. But it's so important to, like, Address your feelings because that's what's coming up when you're anxious. Right? It it's that you have some sort of feeling that you need to acknowledge.

And then I think the other piece of it is just being kind to yourself. You know, letting yourself reminding yourself that You're having a hard time, you know, that you're going through something and you're not sure, you know, what's going to happen. And It's okay that you're feeling stressed out. It's okay that you're worried.

You know, we all go through that, and and it's okay. Right? So having, like, compassion for yourself and feeling your feelings, like, just sitting there. And and you could even, like, set a timer If you don't wanna do it for long, right, that works really well. Just set a timer, 5, 10 minutes. Okay. I'm just gonna, like, eat in my feels. Right? Just Gonna feel my feelings, and then after the 10 minutes, I can move on. Right? That's a nice way to do that too. But Acknowledging your feelings, being kind to yourself, that's a big thing. Right? Another thing I really like is having a mantra.

I know. Scott, you have 1 tattooed to your body, actually. I do. You wanna share it?

Well, which 1? I have 2 tattooed to my body.

Your mantra. I well The v like water? Okay. I do have the v like water, which is a Bruce Lee thing, because it's about being flexible and and, like, You know, carving your own path, and there's a lot that goes along with that. But I also have one that there it says, and there was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt Mhmm. On my on my ribs. And, that's from a Radiohead song, the the the pyramid song, and there's a little pyramid says there's nothing to fear, nothing to doubt, and just like reminders of the types of things that I give myself when I'm, You know, not when I am concerned about, you know, who knows what. My my anxiety's gone wild.

Right. Yeah. So having a mantra, something that's Personal to you like those are to you, I think is really helpful.

Another thing is to, like, make a list of, like, all the things that could happen. Right. So get it out of your mind and just jot down all the things that you fear could happen in the future.

Right? And then rank them on a Probability. So, like, 0 to 100. How likely is this to happen? So 100, it's definitely gonna happen.

No doubt in my mind, 0, is there's absolutely no way this is gonna happen.

Right? And and, usually, when you rank these things that you worry about, they're, like, less than 50% likely that it's going to happen. Right? So then you could look at it analytically and think about, okay.

If it does happen, you know, can I deal with it? What would I do to deal with it? Right? To help yourself feel prepared.

So that's a nice way to, like, Get the thoughts out of the, you know, the the running treadmill and put it down and just, like, really sit with it and think more logically about, k. If this happens realistically, could I handle it? And most of the time, the answer is yes. Right? Because the worst case scenario is probably not

On your paper that you've written down. And logical thinkers, that that works well. That that one works well for me, especially because, like, I I can be in awe in my head about x, y, and z could happen. X, y, and z could happen. And then all of a sudden, if if you tell me, like, what's the likelihood of that actually happening? I'm like, I don't know. Like, 30%. You're like, is that worth worrying about 30%? Like, Right. Oh, you're right. No. It's it's not. I mean, that's, like, low likelihood.

But, you know, it doesn't make the problem go away, but it can reframe it, especially if you're, you know, logical. Mhmm. Another question we have here is,

from anonymous. I experienced some anxiety around feeling like I can't stay up to speed In the ever changing web development tech space, how can I better deal with this type of anxiety is a super common question? People feel like they are getting left behind. It feels like this is my job, and I've got so much work to do.

And these guys on those podcasts keep talking about these new words. And I don't I don't understand what they're talking about, and I feel like I have to spend full time learning, and I'm gonna Become out of date, and, oh my gosh, I'm gonna lose my job. I ended up on the street.

All of that. Right. Right. Well and and how do you both deal with this because I know you talk about that a lot.

How do you navigate that? For me, it's it's like, like, I At a certain point, you get comfortable enough in your skills, and you've been around for long enough to see the waves of tech come and go.

And you know that you know JavaScript or you know some sort of programming language, and should you need to pick something up, You probably can do that. You can. And it's fine not to know about absolutely every new thing. You're going to be able to look up stuff. You're gonna be able to learn things whenever it is that you need it and being okay with not knowing something. Being okay with saying, I don't know. I've never done that. It's

a really powerful thing to be able to do. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense Because you're right. Like, there's just no way you can possibly know everything.

Right? You know? So being flexible and, You know, having compassion for yourself coming back to that, like, it's okay that I don't know everything.

Right? And the things that I do need to learn, I can pick up. Right now and I love the idea when you're anxious of just, like, jotting down your thoughts, like, getting them out of your head and onto paper. Right? So making a list of, like, All the potential things you wanna learn, right, and being strategic about it. So ranking them in terms of, like, what you think is the most important, what's most applicable to the work that you're doing right now.

And then, you know, if you have your 1 or 2 after you've made your list, okay, these are the top 2 things I wanna learn, then break those things down into, like, actionables.

Right? So maybe you dedicate, like, An hour a week to self learning.

Right? And every week, you are, you know, taking the first of, like, your main goal. So, like, what's an example of a language you might wanna learn or a new skill?

Rust This is probably an a good example of one where it's like, yeah. I would like to learn rust, but that's that's a big thing to say. I wanna do that. That's like, I want to learn to juggle. Yeah. It's big and it's hard. It is it's one of those. Yeah. Okay. So, like, just hypothetically, how could you break that down into, like,

Let's say 5 steps. What would be the first 5 things you would do if you wanted to learn this? I would go straight to www.syntax.fm,

Why don't we say www anymore? That's great.

We should. That's what we should do. Yeah.

And, like, Honestly, like, Scott and I are I feel like we're pretty good at that as you do need to take a big topic and break it down into I need to understand Yeah. The functions, the syntax, Scoping. Right? Like there's all these things that you can break it down into.

And then once you have it in manageable things that you can sort of chew on,

Then it becomes a lot easier and a lot more of a clearer path forward. Right. Right. And I think that's a lot of what anxiety is, is taking something that Feels, like, so overwhelming and, like, out of your control and, like, putting it into your control, right, by, like, coming up with a plan, putting some structure around it, and then, like, Taking the actionable steps. So dedicating time to actually learning it that's, like, consistent.

And like an appointment, we've Talked about this before, like, you would exercise or whatever. You make that time a nonnegotiable.

Right? This is an hour a week I'm going to dedicate to learning. Right. And then you go through your steps like you just said. Right? And so I'm working on step 1 of learning rust. Right? And pretty soon, if you keep that up, You'll have learned that skill. Right? You have more confidence in your ability to tackle new things.

Yeah. What's the number one thing you tell me to do Whenever I'm feeling scatterbrained. Yes. I always make a plan. Make a plan. Right? Yeah. I I find that way with my to do list. If I've got so much on my plate, We say this all the time. Out of your head, into your system. So to me, it's a to do list, and then I can say, okay. It's it's out of my head. I don't have to, like, keep it all juggled in the air in my head, and then I can simply just drag and drop them into the order. And I sit down, I do the first thing first, second thing second. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Almost every single time, I'm feeling super anxious.

And Courtney says, did you make your list, or did you put it down on your to do list? I say, No. I haven't done that yet, but I should. You know? Like, I recognize that I'm failing at that aspect. Let me go ahead. Yeah.

You got me. Okay.

Okay. Okay. So we have a a couple of, questions about making big choices, and one of them is about career and one of them is about life. But I think, you know, some some of the stuff can be hit on the the same Same answer or the same context here. So one of them says, I feel anxious about making big decisions because I worry that I'm missing out on a better life or more happiness for myself. Do you have any advice on how to navigate big decisions? And then another question is career anxiety advice. I have a lot of peers who have hit a point in their lives or careers where they feel that either I do this job for the rest of my life or I change now, but I don't know if there's something better for them. What advice do you have on quieting or addressing this anxiety of whether or not the career is the best fit this career is the best fit for you. So 2 big decisions questions. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. I I mean, I think that these are common, Things that, you know, we start to think about in our thirties. Right? Like, am I on the right path? Am I making the right decisions? Am I doing what's best for me? Right. And I think it it can be really helpful to understand what your values are. So, like, what you value in life and what's most important to you. You know, because everyone has a different answer to that question.

And when you truly know, like, your core values and what's important to you, then I think that you can make More informed decisions based on that. Right? So in terms of, like, your career, what's most important to you? Is it your salary? Is it the type of work you're doing? Is it your work, life balance? Right? Like, what is most important to you? And then you can think about, You know, your actual job, right, or or whatever you're doing in life and then what other alternatives you could do in life And kind of, like, conflate those based on your values.

You know, so if I'm doing this, does it give me all those Things that align with my values or is this other opportunity more in line with my values. Right? So it's kind of like that pro con list, But it allows you to think about, like, what's most important to me.

And then, like, logically analyzing, you know, these 2 big situations or decisions and how they fit with that.

So you're you're talking about, like, taking something that's Emotional and making it more

logical. Is that is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah. That seems to be the big theme of today, but I think it's so helpful. Well, Olight is Definitely for programmers. Yeah. Yeah. Just getting it out onto paper so you can, like, really see it for what it is.

And then you can, you know, talk to your friends about it, talk to your therapist, you know, talk about the pros and cons, like, Really sit there and think about it and then make an informed decision that's based on, like, who you are to your true core and then what it is that you want. Right. And then the next step is to, like, accept, right, whatever you decided. Because no decision is perfect. Right? We all know the grass isn't always greener.

So whatever you choose will probably have some flaws to it, right, or something that's, like, scarier, unpredictable.

You know, there's always negatives in every decision.

But you have to, like, be comfortable in knowing that you made the best decision with The information that you had at that time and to, like, again, give yourself that compassion that, you know, if something happens, you know, you can always shift course.

Right? So not anything is, like, set in stone most of the time. Right. There are very few decisions that you can't, like, shift course on. So you make your best decision, and if you've stuck with that for a while and you're finding, like, this isn't working for me, you can always, you know, change your path back to whatever it is that you, need to do. Right? But, again, just getting it out of your head onto paper, talking about it, making a decision,

I think it's always key. Yeah. I think, you know, to put some even, like, practical context to something that we've done too, like, when we chose to move out of Michigan, Courtney and I lived in Michigan our whole lives, and we didn't know where we're going to move to, so we made a giant, spreadsheet essentially of, like, Here are the different 6 different locations we're considering, and then here are the things that we need out of life. And then we just went line by line and filled it in And scored it up. And at the end of it, it, like, it it made sense to move where we moved and to do what we did based on our current life situation. And and I think it was, like, really helpful Well, because it for me personally, just thinking of all these different options in the air, they can feel ethereal and, like, hey, we we put them into a real, Like physical space, and we were able to see them very directly as for what they actually were. And like also, I've changed jobs based on vibes before.

Like, I had an interview that I felt went really well. They were offering good money, and I took the job, and then it wasn't the job that I really actually wanted at the end of the day. And you know what I did? I I, changed my job, And I applied for new jobs, and I got a new job within 6 months.

And you might be concerned about that because people get all Concerned about, like, oh, what's this gonna look like on my resume, whatever, we'll prioritize, you know, prioritize your happiness over what's it gonna look like on your resume sometimes, it's important.

Mhmm.

It all works out. Right? That's It all works out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Is there anything that we did not get to because this is the end of our Questions here. So is there anything that we didn't hit that you wanted to hit on this topic before we get into, you know, the end part of the show?

No. I I think, you know, if you're struggling with anxiety, having, like, a daily practice, you know, 5, 10 minutes a day where you're, like, really focusing on And some sort of, like, coping or relaxation strategy is really helpful.

Right? So if it's, like, Your 1st 10 minutes in the morning, you're meditating or you're doing, like, a headspace, you know, some sort of, like, deep breathing. Right? We love the 478 breathing.

And, actually, the breathing app is a really great app too that I use. It's free, and it helps you do that 478 breathing. And you can set a time limit, So you don't have to worry about it. And it will tell you when it's done.

So that's really nice. But what you wanna do is make it like a daily practice. Like anything, like exercising, you know, you you wanna do it every day so that, when you are feeling stressed Mhmm. The skills that you're Practicing will actually take over. Right? You can't expect yourself to, like, know how to deal with your stress if you haven't, like, prepared for it.

Right. So doing it every day really just helps to, like, mitigate any, like, residual stress, but also helps you in those moments where you're really stressed out or anxious and and you need that Support. Not to give people homework, but a breathing app is a very good,

exercise if you're trying to learn JavaScript as well. We had a couple students in, classes I've taught before build them because they'd like, they've had anxiety, and they're like, you know what? I'm gonna build my own breathing app. And Oh, yeah. It's timers. It's start and stop, async away promises, all all that good stuff. So

It's a fun one. Yeah. That would be great. If you made your own, then you'd probably be more likely to use it. Yeah. Totally. And there's prob there's a lot of good app ideas in this show, whether it's like trackers or breeders or any of that stuff. Trackers. My dad does like stretches

for his back. And It's like you start to stretch, you hold it, you stop, and then there's, like like, 10 of those. And then you have, like, a 32nd break and they do 10 more, and then You switch like, there's all this, like, nested Mhmm. Logic inside of it. It's really good to learn. Yeah. Stretching is great too. Stretching, yoga, breathing. I mean, whatever works for you. You have to find something that works.

But having, like, a daily practice of it and having an app to keep you accountable, I think, is awesome.

Yeah. I've been liking the the onsen.

It's like a, like, a Japanese Japanese, like, So great. And it's a Japanese, like, pool is an unsung, but, like, what I've been doing is, like, the unsung experience where I'm taking, like, I'm I'm I'm getting that bath water up to, like, a 1000000000 degrees, and I'm cooking in that thing like a stew. And that, to me, is, like, one of the things that I really like to do to, decrease my anxiety. So that's a, you know, possible example out there. Just cook yourself? Yeah. Cook yourself a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. No. As long as I don't have, like, a cartoon villain, like, scraping off some carrots into it, I'm I'm okay. There's not, like, a fire underneath it.

We usually have these supper club questions that are like, what kind of computer and shell do you use? But I don't think you know what a shell is.

So I'm going to ask you, I came up with 3 quick questions here that we could do instead of these. So one of them is, what do you like to do to relax?

Yeah. That I mean, that's a tough one with kids. Right? I feel like there is no time to relax.

Yeah. I mean, we definitely Scott and I have our shows that we like to watch.

So that's always fun to have some downtime.

I like reading.

I work out daily.

You know, just talking to friends. When when you have kids, you know, you don't get really time to talk with friends. So last night, I went and grabbed a drink with some girlfriends, some other moms at the school, and that was really great. You know? So just having time to connect with your friends. Yeah. That that is

extremely refreshing. Like, I I even said that last time I went to a conference, it had been a while since I've been to a conference and just just chit chatting with people about tech. And I came back to me like, man, I forgot how, like, refreshing that is to, like, go hang out with people and talk tech. Right? Yeah. Just to connect.

Yeah. It's great. What do you do, Wes? I,

build stuff, work, but, like

What what don't you do It's the classic psychologist trick of turning the question around someone else.

One thing we've started recently is me and my wife are splitting bedtimes because for the last, what, 6, 7 years, we've been putting all the kids together to like, we we would 1 would take 2 kids, the other 1 will take 1 kid, And then we will put them to bed and and before you know it, it's 8:30, 9 o'clock, and you have an hour left.

Yeah. Now what we're doing is We do every other night. So the other night, it's like 5:30 or whatever after dinner, 6 o'clock.

And you say, Sit you. You know? And you can go do whatever you want, and the other person has to put the kids to bed, and and they're responsible for them for the the entire night. And that has been Awesome for getting a little bit more free time to go to the gym, to work on stuff around the house, to Just have a bit of time to poke around at whatever it is that you're interested in doing that night, going shopping. You know?

What's a podcast that you really like?

One that I I was thinking about for this is the Being Well podcast. It's by, Rick Hanson. He's a neuropsychologist, and he's he's very smart. So if you're looking for, like, a high level, podcast about just anxiety, You know, general happiness and, like, well-being, that's a really great podcast over Rick Hanson.

What do you listen to for fun, though? Oh, what I you know what I really like? I'm like yeah. This sounds, I always feel like I'm gonna get judged for this, but I'm definitely into, like no. I'm not. Yeah. Okay. Being someone with anxiety, like, I don't wanna listen to food crimes. I'm definitely, like, thinking that's gonna happen in real life. The celebrity book club Oh. Is one that I like. It's like these 2 girls. I wanna say they're like Gen Zers. I don't know. They they give off, like, a young vibe. But they, they review celebrity biographies, And it's really funny because you don't have to, like, read the book like they did the Prince Harry one. You know, they do all the big ones.

And, they give you, like, The gist, but they, like, go into some of the details that the celebrities are talking about. And it's just really funny, because they're often ridiculous.

So it's just it's good for a laugh. Yeah. The celebrity book club. I love I love stuff like that where

they're taking apart, like, a movie That now I don't have to watch this movie. They're they're talking about it, and they're probably more interesting than the movie is anyways even especially if it's a bad movie or something like that. So, Like, just getting the vibes of any of these things,

I always like that. There is a true crime one that I like. You introduced me to it. It's like the reality Starz True Crime?

Oh, is it called Even the Rich? Is that No. No. Because there's one called Even the Rich about No. Some, like, rich people scandals. That's pretty good.

Oh, criminality is what it's called. So it's, like, true crime, but it's, like, reality stars.

So it's like people, like, you know, not filing their taxes, like, jail or like It's it's light true crime. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It says there's stuff about Tyra Banks and I don't yeah. Yeah. Or Nick Lachey, too hot to handle too hot to cancel.

Yeah. So just goofy stuff like I like light hearted stuff because I'm dealing with, like, intense feelings all day. Mhmm. Like, in my downtime, I want the light stuff. Yeah. Right? I get that.

Last 1 here. If you had to start your career over today, what would you do?

Oh, wow. That's an interesting question. We talk about this a lot. I'm really good at, like so I'm, like, a first child, the oldest child, and I'm good at, like, Critiquing.

Feel like we're very good at critiquing and, like, being, high achievers.

And I love food, So I often joke that I could be, like, a food critic. You're a good writer too. You're a great writer. Yeah. Yeah. So I would think about that, like, being a food critic. Yeah. I think you'd I think you're well suited for that. Yeah. Yeah. Be very different.

You could you could start your you could get your Yelper Yelper start. You could start yelping. I could start Are you off things? Does anyone use Yelp anymore? Do you guys use Yelp over there?

No. We just use Google. Yeah. Yeah. Yelp's kinda I I went on it the other day, and it's just like a Ghost Town. I was wondering, maybe maybe they They have some though. It's a hard app to use. I haven't haven't used it in many, many years. I think They make you download it, don't they? You're like, you can't look at the reviews unless you download it, and I don't want it. I don't want it. I get all those alerts on my Google Watch.

You know, there's a hot new restaurant down the street. Like, I don't wanna know about that. That. Yeah. I I that's why we don't do it. I hate that when they Dude, that that's how you can tell they're struggling for money when they, like, aggressively same with what Quora did that, We're like all of Quora's are now and medium is now doing that. They're making you sign in to to view it. So All those businesses are garbage. Garbage.

Alright.

Let's get into the part of the show where we talk about sick picks. Sick picks are things that we think are sick or cool or anything. Could be literally anything. Courtney, did you bring a sick pick for us today?

So speaking of critiquing, Wes, I heard you are very Anti, like, small utensils in the kitchen? Single use. Oh, single use. Single use. Utensils. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I have to stick pick this one. It's a vegetable chopper.

So it's like it's like a a rectangle, and it You put the vegetable in it and push down. Like the grid? Oh, I've Yeah. Like the grid. TikTok chopper. Yeah. Oh, is it a tick see, I'm not on TikTok. Loaded. Actually, you know what? I've been thinking about getting one of these because if looks like You can Really? Eat the entire salad pretty quickly. Yes. I love it. And I I am not like, I love to cook, but I'm not, like, good at dicing things neatly. You know? So if you Are going to a party or or you want, like, your meal to look really nice? The vegetable chopper is great, but it's also really easy. Our knives suck, though. I'm I'm sure that is, like, part of why. That probably is why. But I love the vegetable chopper. It's, like, $20, and it's easy to wash and easy to use.

And, be careful if you're putting it in the dishwasher.

Part of it is very, very sharp. And, Wes, I was just reaching for stuff in the dishwasher the other day, And my little thumby my little thumby went right into that grid. And, boy, I've been dealing with it now for days. It is It is sharp. So, yeah, be careful around it. It says warning, and it means that because it it hurts. And and does does yours have all the attachments, like, does it is it a mandolin as well or just a a grid chopper?

Ours does not have a mandolin, but it has 4 different, like things. Okay. I think it has a spiralizer and, like, a couple different chopping Mhmm. Modes. I don't trust It's it's easy to swap in and out. It's really nice, and it's small. We have a mandolin. Every now and then, we make,

like like chips, like French fry chips. Oh, yeah. But it's it's dicey, man. Like, I'm I'm gonna take my fingers off one day. I see. I'm, like, punching, thinking about using a man.

Is there anything that you would like to share or plug?

Sure. I would plug my learning evaluation center. So I'm the director of, a learning center here in Denver, Colorado, and we do assessments for ADHD, Anxiety, learning disabilities, and autism. So if you're interested in that, check out our website, learning evaluation center.org.

And and you see you see kids from all over surrounding areas. Right? It's not just, like, Denver kids?

Yeah. It's we're Based in Denver, but we could see kids from anywhere, and our age range is 4 to 21.

Sick. Well, thank you so much for Coming on the show, Court, I I thought this was really awesome. And, yeah, let us know if you have any other topics you'd love to hear from Kourtney on. She As a doctor of psychology, she she is, you know, very, very educated in this stuff. So if there's anything anybody has and, you know, they're wondering about, Always feel free to hit us with that.

What is it? Our our submission form is for the potluck form. You can always use that form to submit, questions anonymously. So if you're you know, you don't wanna ask your question on Twitter or something like that, you know, use it on the anonymous form, and you can always ask our question. We can Collect them for the next time we have Courtney on. Thanks for coming on the show, Court. Alright. Thank you. Ace.

Ace.

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